plans within plans within plans – Dune read along part III

Posted by: Redhead on: July 23, 2011

• In: Dune | Frank Herbert | read along | science fiction
• 10 Comments

walk without rhythym. . . .

Hi Everyone, and welcome to the final section of our Dune read along. Hope you enjoyed the ride!    Our last group of questions was kindly supplied by Grace, and she came up with some great ones!

Here are the questions, and my answers are after the jump:

1.  What is your reaction to finally learning the identity of Princess Irulan?  Do you think that her convention added to the story?
2.  Were you satisfied with the ending?  For those reading for the first time, was it what you expected?

3.  On both Arrakis and Salusa Secundus, ecology plays a major role in shaping both characters and the story itself.  Was this convincing?  Do you think that Paul would have gone through with his threat to destroy the spice, knowing what it would mean for Arrakis?

4.  Both Leto and Paul made their decisions on marriage for political reasons.  Do you agree with their choices?

5.  What was your favorite part in this section of the book?
6.  One of the things I noticed in the discussions last week was Herbert’s use of the word “jihad.”  What do you think of Herbert’s message about religion and politics?

 

 

1.  What is your reaction to finally learning the identity of Princess Irulan?  Do you think that her convention added to the story?

I’m a total Dune-head, so none of this was a surprise for me. Although we don’t “meet” Princess Irulan face to face until the last scene, we’ve been getting her input and commentaries the whole time. Her commentaries often feel like they are observing everything from a distance, she often uses the phrase “it is said”, or “people say”, perhaps to infer that she herself didn’t witness the scene she is talking about, perhaps she was never involved in the things that she’s discussing. And I get the impression that all of her writings were written later in her life, perhaps after the death of her father. It’s most interesting, because she practically biographies Paul, but she never really gets to know him, even though they get married. Really takes the phrase “political marriage” to a whole ‘nother level. And of course, Paul can’t not be aware that if he were to have a child with Irulan the Bene Gesserit could make another tick mark in their book of genetic breeding. Marrying Irulan and refusing to have a child with her is a great way to screw the Bene Gesserit . . . just one more power play.

 

If you’ve ever seen the 1984 movie, the opening is narrated by Princess Irulan, and you see her face while she’s talking, so later in the film when you see her you know exactly who she is.
2.  Were you satisfied with the ending?  For those reading for the first time, was it what you expected?

It’s a great ending! Passion, action, fear, kidnapping, political maneuvering and bargaining, power plays up the wazoo, everything about it is just excellent. The end of the novel puts the epic into Dune!
3.  On both Arrakis and Salusa Secundus, ecology plays a major role in shaping both characters and the story itself.  Was this convincing?  Do you think that Paul would have gone through with his threat to destroy the spice, knowing what it would mean for Arrakis?

The ecology aspect of the novel is so subtly wonderful. You start reading this book and you think it’s about a family that has to start new someplace else, and political betrayal and wars between noble houses and such. Nope, it’s about coming to grips with ecological systems. I hope everyone had the chance to read the appedices at the end of the book, the first one talks about Pardot Kynes and his near fanatical love for understanding how ecological systems work. I wish that portion had been worked into the novel proper, because it’s just brilliant. For me the ecology aspects were very convincing. I’d love to see more of that kind of world-building depth in books that are written today.

Would Paul have gone through with his threat? I sure hope so. Everyone sees him as this dumb kid from a nearly dead House, if he’s going to show he’s got power, then damnit, he needs to show he’s got some power! I said it before and I’ll say it again, who would have ever thought such a shit kicker little planet would have been the center of the Empire?

4.  Both Leto and Paul made their decisions on marriage for political reasons.  Do you agree with their choices?

Well, the way Paul did it, he never has to sleep with his wife. All he has to do is show up for a ceremony, say some stuff, maybe kiss her on the cheek. He never has to have children with her. In a sense, it’s a brilliant power play, he still gets to be with the woman he loves, yet his wife’s house is bound to his house. With Duke Leto, he wanted to be with the woman he loved, but to keep himself open to aligning with another house he never married Jessica. . . yet a royal princess never came knocking either. Hmmmm, do I agree with their choices? Since they both stayed with the woman they loved (and she loved him back), then Yes, I agree. It sucks for Irulan, but that’s a whole ‘nother story.

5.  What was your favorite part in this section of the book?

Umm, everything! I think my favorite part is the end, when Baron Harkonnen and the Emperor finally figure out who exactly this Muad’Dib guy is. Those two just keep getting surprised over and over again. Alia is wonderful when she’s with the Emperor, she treats him like an equal, and I think he’s half flabbergasted and half amused by her that he lets her get away with it all. Their conversations are hilarious, he’s almost treating her like a favorite granddaughter.

On a sadder note, Paul realizes that he’s either going to be the leader and friend of the Fremen, or their religious prophet. He can’t be both. Stilgar will either be his friend and ally, or his worshipper. It’s got to be very lonely to be a prophet. You’re surrounded by people who worship you, but none of them are your friends.

 
6.  One of the things I noticed in the discussions last week was Herbert’s use of the word “jihad.”  What do you think of Herbert’s message about religion and politics?

On a tangent, I’d like to answer a slightly different question by drawing attention to the appendix that talks about the Religion of Arrakis, and also the earlier attempt to bring together all of the religions of the Empire. I get the impression that most of the Empire’s religions have grown out of Old Earth religions.

Herbert talks about the Commission of Ecumenical Translators, which came about after the Butlerian Jihad (there’s that word again). At their first meeting on old Earth, the C.E.T. Were able to immediately agree on a common goal, and I’m quoting this directly from the book:

 “We are here to remove a primary weapon from the hands of disputant religions. That weapon – the claim to possession of the one and only revelation”.

Think about that for a moment. How different would our world be if folks of different religions weren’t running around claiming their truth was the only truth and everyone else was wrong?

 

 

 

Tags: Dune, epic, science fiction